Iconic, multi-platinum Welsh singer-songwriter Donna Lewis shares inspiration and insight from her career in the music industry, reflecting on how she discovered her unique voice and sense of self — and stuck to it — even amidst the pressures of showbiz. Plus, you’ll get the behind-the-scenes story about Donna’s infectious ‘90s hit song “I Love You Always Forever,” and what Donna learned about the importance of staying true to her vision.

You’ll also hear about Donna’s deeply personal and powerful new record, “Rooms With A View,” a poignant reflection on her journey fighting breast cancer. She Rocked It is especially honored to share Donna’s story as part of National Breast Cancer Awareness Month. This episode is sure to resonate with anyone who’s interested in protecting and fanning their creative flame. Tune in and rock on!

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Episode highlights:

• [3:30] Learn what gave Donna Lewis the courage to pursue a music career wholeheartedly
• [6:25] How playing in piano bars led Donna to discovering her signature sound
• [11:55] How Donna stayed true to the magic of her original demos for her smash hit “I Love You Always Forever” 
• [15:34] How Donna documented and bravely shared her breast cancer journey through her powerful new album, “Rooms With A View”
• [21:47] An inside look into Donna’s creative life and her family life
• [28:48] Karen and Donna explore their mutual connection to acclaimed producer and “gentle wizard” David Torn
• [30:21] Donna Lewis shares her tip to rock it 

Links from this episode: 

• Donna Lewis: https://www.donnalewis.com/
• Donna Lewis on Bandcamp: https://donnalewis.bandcamp.com/ 
• David Torn: https://davidtornmusic.com/
• Tim Motzer: https://www.timmotzer.com/

Transcript

KAREN GROSS [INTRO]: Hello and welcome to the She Rocked It podcast. I’m your host, Karen Gross, and I’m so excited you’re here with us. If you love what we’re up to here at She Rocked It, please go ahead and subscribe to the podcast. Feel free to leave a comment. We love hearing your comments, and also feel free to share this episode with a friend, because we believe that when women listen to, learn from and lift one another up, we can all rock it! And I could not be more excited to share this next conversation, which is part of our Real Talk with Women in the Music Industry podcast series. And by the way, if you go to our website and hear more conversations on this topic, as well as conversations about Creative entrepreneurship and women in leadership.

Today, I have the incredible honor and thrill of connecting with Donna Lewis, yes! Now listen, if you grew up in the 80s and 90s, and I was in high school in the 90s, her song, “I Love You Always Forever” was everywhere. You know, I’m still singing and humming this song on the regular. And so to speak with Donna Lewis here on the She Rocked It podcast, is a true dream come true. Donna is an iconic multiplatinum singer songwriter, originally from Wales, who has had an incredible career and much to share about her journey through the music industry, working with executives like Jason Flom and legendary producers like Trevor Horn and Kevin Killen. After releasing her debut album “Now in a Minute” in 1996 which featured that famous song, “I Love You Always Forever.”

She went on to release her second album, “Blue “Planet” on Atlantic Records, before independently releasing her albums “Be Still” and “In the Pink.” Then she went on to record her album, “Brand New Day,” produced by David Torn. And you’re going to hear a little bit more about both of our connection to David Torn in this interview. Throughout her journey, Donna stayed true to her voice as an artist, and really had to stand up for herself, and you’re not gonna believe what happened in the production process of “I Love You Always Forever.”

She gives us a behind the scenes look at how she really stayed true to her vision for that song, And earlier this year, Donna released what may be her most personal, powerful and profound album to date, called “Rooms with a View,” an album that she created in collaboration with producer Holmes Ives. And through incredibly poetic and poignant music and lyrics, it tells her journey of fighting breast cancer. And we couldn’t think more appropriate time to share this conversation than October, which, of course, is National Breast Cancer Awareness Month. In advance, I want to thank Donna for sharing her journey with us and for raising her voice and rocking it throughout her career. Now, without further ado, let’s hear from Donna Lewis. 

KAREN GROSS: Donna Lewis, welcome to the She Rocked It podcast. 

DONNA LEWIS: So nice to be here and chat to you. It’s gonna be great. 

KAREN GROSS: Thank you so much again for joining us. You have raised your voice, your beautiful and distinctive voice, so courageously leading up to your latest release, which we’re going to talk about, “Rooms with a View.” Can you just start off by telling us like, what originally gave you that courage to raise your incredible voice and pursue your music wholeheartedly? 

DONNA LEWIS: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s funny, I grew up listening to my dad play a lot of jazz piano and jazz guitar; he had a big record collection. So music always filled the house. And at school, you know, we always were in like little vocal bands, and then other bands. I think my life was my music, my friends were my musician friends, and then I went to music college, and I think I always knew that. I thought, well, I love music so much I wanted to pursue it. Again, you know, when I was at college, I wasn’t really sure, like exactly what I was going to do. I did my after I finished at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, I did a year of teachers training. I thought, I better have that in my back pocket, just in case! Teaching a class of, like, kids who just ran around the room, and I thought, “Oh, my God, like, this is not easy!” Anyway, so I did that. And then, you know, I kind of left college, and I had about, you know, had about 25 little flute and piano pupils, and then I would, then I would sing in bands at night for my, you know, to earn money.

KAREN GROSS: And this is still in Wales, right? 

DONNA LEWIS: Yes, So I never really planned to do anything else, really. And then, of course, I, you know when you talk about being courageous, I suppose it is because I remember being 14, and writing songs, but I was too afraid to sort of sing them, because I wasn’t sure you know what my voice was like. And I remember recording for my dad, “It Had to Be You” on a little cassette recorder. And I said, Can you just listen to this dad? And I just ran up into my room, because I just wanted, like, his approval. And he said, “This is really great, you know.” And then I and then, as I said, you know, joining a band in school with other vocalists, and you, you know, starting writing, and then, you know, you get your confidence. And so it, I think it is, it takes some courage in the beginning to actually, I want to be a singer. You know.

KAREN GROSS: I love that your dad was supportive. Of course, he was a musician himself. But, like, it’s a little scary when you show you know, your parents or your family, that recording, and it’s, it can be very fragile, right? That, that sharing of the early creativity. 

DONNA LEWIS: Yes, and you know, both of them, I think I’ve been so lucky having my parents support me with everything. As you know, being a musician, it’s not the easiest career to have, and, you know, but I kind of went on from there. You know, I started then doing, you know, had an agent to do piano bars. I started doing a lot of piano bars in Europe, which was like five hours a night, six nights a week for a couple of months. And I had to learn an extensive set of music. And then I would be able to slip my originals in here and there. And I would choose, you know, yeah, people would come up to me and say, Can you play blah, blah, blah, Frank Sinatra or Billy Joel, whatever. But I also did songs by Kate Bush and Rickie Lee Jones, so I wanted to try and make it me. And that’s, I think that’s how I really found my voice is doing this solo piano bar work and finding, okay, I like this sound that I’m, that I’ve, that I found now, and I think I had to … probably had to develop this quiet, breathy voice, because singing five hours a night, there’s no if I was a belter, I I wouldn’t be able to survive six nights.

KAREN GROSS: So interesting. Totally. I love hearing how you kind of cut your teeth with these bands that were, you know, working bands, you know, working the gigs and learning the right and you, you know, they say overnight success. No, you, you cut your teeth, putting in the work and the time and those long gigs, learning all those songs. And it’s so interesting to hear that, 

DONNA LEWIS: Yeah, you, you become really good at sort of, oh my god, I’m going to learn the new Phil Collins song. And it’s like, do it. I mean, a few of my friends, we say, now, oh my God, to do that. Now. It’s like, holy shit. Like, this is not easy. I’ve taken a little while to figure out the chords. 

KAREN GROSS: I hear that. 

DONNA LEWIS: Yeah, it was great experience. And I really did learn a lot. And then, you know, after the whole piano bar thing, then I started with, you know, the little four track TASCAM recorders. And then went to the eight track where I wrote “I Love You Always Forever” on it. And, you know, again, it was this, alright, had that, my keyboard, and my sequencer, my little drum machine, and then it was just hours at home figuring stuff out myself, you know, figuring out how I wanted to kind of produce my songs in a very sort of like small way. I do feel, you know, I did all these years before I got my deal, because I remember going on the Kathie and Regis show, Kathie Lee and Regis show, first TV thing that I ever did. And I remember he introduced me saying, “Here’s Donna Lewis, and she’s an overnight sensation. She’s gone from like vacuuming the house to now.” And it was so funny, I can’t even remember the exact words, but I kind of wanted to say to him, “Actually, no.” I did, like, work for like, a good 10 years before I did get a deal, you know. 

KAREN GROSS: Did you ever feel like you had to change your voice to fit more of that classic, you know, I’m a singing with a big band, or I’m singing in a piano bar because your voice is so beautifully distinctive. Or did you feel like you could own the uniqueness of your voice in some of those settings?

DONNA LEWIS: I mean, working with those big bands, I really, I don’t think I had my voice then, because I remember the band leader once said, I’m not sure about your vibrato, Donna. And it was like, Oh, really. I think it was only being at home, recording, writing and singing after the piano bar thing, and I was inspired by people like Rickie Lee Jones and Kate Bush, and it just sort of came out then in my writing and recording, and I realized, Oh, that’s really cool. If I layer up my voice a little, I can create this, like, this really good atmospheric texture. And so it all, like, sort of just unraveled, you know, over that time, you know. And so by the time, you know, I did get, did start making my record. I mean, I did know exactly who I was. 

KAREN GROSS [INTERSTITIAL]: Hey rockstars, thanks so much for tuning in. And isn’t this an incredible conversation with Donna Lewis, really getting to hear how she found her voice as an artist? If you want to hear more real talk with women in the music industry, go ahead and tune in to some other episodes we’ve done on this topic anywhere you listen to podcasts. And if you haven’t already, please be sure to subscribe. Now we’re going to jump ahead a little bit and hear an inside story about how Donna created her hit song, “I Love You Always Forever.” But before we dive in, I just want to set the stage a little bit to make sure you understand some of the things that Donna is going to mention. She talks about meeting with Jason Flom, who is a record industry executive. He was a big to-do over at Atlantic Records there for a while. And she mentions Kev affectionately, that’s Kevin Killen, and working with him on this song. And she also talks about an instrument called the Korg M1 which is a synthesizer and music workstation that was really popular in the 80s and 90s. Donna was really using that as a key part of her songwriting process, as kind of a one-stop instrument to create lots of cool sounds. So if she talks about the Korg M1 you know what she’s talking about. But the bottom line is this, Donna really stayed true to her voice and her vision for this song. So without further ado, let’s hear more from Donna.

DONNA LEWIS: And so we recorded it, and I went into Jason Flom, and we were playing it because, of course, everybody knew “I Love You Always Forever” was going to be the first single and most catchiest song. And Jason said to me, “What do you think?” And I said, “To be honest, I think it’s lost a bit of the magic you know, the demo had.” And he said, “Totally agree. Can you fix it?” And I said, “Yeah.” And so he said, “Do whatever you need to do.” So we went back into the studio without Kev. He was fine about it and went in with, actually, Jimmy Bralower organized the studio. He’s a great drum programmer who did my first record. Great guy. So went in the studio with him and an engineer. We flew all my Korg M1 sounds because “I Love You Always Forever” is my demo. Everything was done on the Korg M1: the brass, the organ, all the atmospherics, everything. We flew it all back in and we mixed it. And so every part of “I Love You Always Forever” is my Korg M1.

KAREN GROSS: Wow. That is so amazing. I love hearing, of course, that song, the rest is history, right? We know what happened with that song, but you had to fight for that song. 

DONNA LEWIS: I did. So I remember, I remember somebody saying to me, “God, Donna, you’re being very obsessive.” When we were in the studio talking about, I think, you know, “I Love You Always Forever” has lost the magic. And a few people said, “I think you’re being, like, really obsessive.” And I stuck to my guns, because I just knew, I mean, when we all know sometimes the demo is the magic moment, maybe you have to fix it in a few places, but there’s some magic, and that was really hard trying to get that back, even vocally as well, you know. So I really, I’m really, like, proud of myself. I think that was the turning point for me, because then, when the record was released, I remember, you know, the stylists come in and the, you know, like, we need to get the hair right. And I remember, you know, I had many of those moments. And I remember, and this was a wake up call for me. And then from then on, I, you know, had a few moments where I should have, like, stuck to my guns, but I didn’t. But I remember doing the first TV show, the Kathie Lee and Regis show, and there was a makeup artist and hairdresser came in at four in the morning to do my hair. And I thought, Oh my God, that’s not me, you know? I mean so …  and then the stylist came in with this whole wardrobe of clothes, and I’m looking at them, and I’m thinking, Oh my God, nothing there is me. You don’t really know me yet. So I ended up brushing all my hair out, doing my own makeup and wearing my own clothes, and that was a big thing for me then, because I thought “I just have to be myself.” And there are amazing stylists, and I’ve met some amazing stylists I’m still friends with, and makeup artists, and you learn from them, and you learn, you know, who you trust. But again, they were trying to sort of maybe make me into somebody that I wasn’t, you know, I said I’m not one of those flamboyant artists. I really just want to sing my songs. So it was a big, you know, big learning curve. 

KAREN GROSS: Thank you so much for sharing all of that. It’s just so incredible to hear how you, you know, you fought for your voice, you fought for your vision, and even just your personal brand. You know, how you were represented. And, you know, let’s maybe talk about your latest record, because it’s so powerful and so personal and so brave, I must say, I think to talk about your journey fighting against breast cancer. And it’s a journey that, unfortunately, many women have had to walk and sharing that story I know is really going to touch so many women. Can you tell us about sharing your voice through “Rooms With A View” and what gave you, again, that courage, perhaps, to document that, to put pen to paper, and then, not only to do that for yourself, but then to decide to share that with the world. 

DONNA LEWIS: I, know it’s interesting, because, you know, when I first started my treatment for breast cancer, I was thinking, I am not going to be one of those that’s going to be sort of going live and sharing my story, because I thought I don’t even know what’s ahead of me. And there are moments, you know, doing the chemo, radiation, surgery, everything, it’s a year of my life, and I didn’t know how I was going to be. So I never intended to share in any way, but in the middle of treatment, it was so interesting, because Holmes, who had remixed a piano vocal song of mine, “I Told You So,” a few years back, and it was so great. He just, out of the blue, just sent me a bunch of instrumental tracks, and he said, I’ve got all these instrumental tracks. Do you want to … Is there anything there that you fancy collaborating on? Anything that inspires you and so … 

KAREN GROSS: And for those of you who may not have checked out the record yet, Holmes Ives is uh Donna’s collaborator on this record. They are a power duo. So yes. 

DONNA LEWIS: It is great, on such a personal story, how it all came about. But so I was start, I started listening to the songs and the tracks, and they were very electronic, which I love. And I was like, looking through them. And then I was like singing some ideas, and I’m thinking, yeah, I could do something on this. 

KAREN GROSS: Did he know what you were going through? And he was like, sending you, wow. So he just randomly sent you these cool electronic tracks?

DONNA LEWIS: Randomly sent me these tracks. And so this one particular one I said, I wrote back and said, “You know, I, I’m, I’m gonna, like, do something. I’m gonna do some vocals, and we’ll see what we think.” And so “The Messenger” was the first one that I started with, because that sort of resonated with me really, yeah. And I had my journals open, because all through my my breast cancer treatment, I just wrote and wrote, you know, how I was feeling, you know, the numbers on the rooms that you were in became very important to me. And it’s interesting how… Anyway, so I had my journals open. I was looking through them, and I’d written something like, “Cancer’s like a messenger. It’s, it’s the uninvited, unexpected, you know, surprising visitor that you get.” And so I started writing, and all these lyrics flooded out. And so we were only going to do an EP first, and then there all these songs like started to happen. In the end, we were saying, Oh, my God, we’ve got like, about 10 tracks here. And then I was just feeling, I really it’s important for me to put this out. Because I had, we had planned to put this other record out of unreleased music, and I just thought, I don’t, I don’t care. I just need to share this now. I need to do it so you know that that’s what we ended up doing. So it just, it was all that, I think it became a therapy. Do you know what I mean? It’s also cancer treatment is overwhelming, and you get caught, I mean, everything is revolved around hospital appointments, infusions, dadada and then you’re trying to educate yourself on your type of cancer at the same time and and I think when I was in the studio singing, I just felt like, I’m me. Do you know what I mean? It just, I could forget about it. So that’s why I think it, it was my therapy and I just feel, hopefully, you know, other people going through the same thing. And, you know, I was talking to my oncologist, and it’s not just cancer, it’s anybody going through any trauma or anything like really difficult in their lives. I mean, I think it, you know, songs … I love it when people interpret the songs in their own way. I don’t normally like to say this song is about da, da, da, da, da, but this I had to kind of explain, because then it kind of makes sense. 

KAREN GROSS: Yeah, it’s an incredible journey, lyrically and sonically. The words that came to my mind as I was thinking about it is, it’s both kind of haunting and hopeful at once. It’s, it’s very evocative. Thank you! That’s my communication side coming out. 

DONNA LEWIS: I like that.

KAREN GROSS: I’m so grateful. Sometimes you don’t want to paint someone with a brush, you know, but it struck a chord in me in both those ways. You evoke so much. Like you said, it’s not, it’s almost abstract in certain ways, like you could interpret it being various things you’re going through, because the lyrics just kind of paint these images. They’re almost like little snapshots, and they’re a little bit blurry. You’re not exactly sure what’s going on. And it’s so powerful because then you say, like, the room number or or the mark that’s happening on your body. And it’s just, it’s so poetic. I just wanted to say it’s, it’s such a again, I get goosebumps easily, and when I’m really affected, and I’m getting them right now, because just even thinking about the whole record and the journey of it. 

Amazing. And you are a mom, also, yes and tell us about, you know, the ecosystem of your life. And obviously you went through something so intense, you know, a year or two ago. How do you find yourself balancing your creative practice and your life as a partner and a mom and a creative person? And how does that look for you in your life?

DONNA LEWIS: So it’s interesting, because when I had Arch – Archie –  yeah, that was my, his great grandfather’s name. So, like, we didn’t give him Archibald. He’s Archie. No, I was actually recording some songs for “In the Pink” when I was pregnant with Arch and it’s so funny, you know how I thought, “Oh yeah, I’m gonna have a baby and I’m gonna be able to, like, travel and do shows and just have my baby under my arm, and it’s all going to be like, so great.” And it’s so interesting. When he arrived, I mean, I just couldn’t be away from him for one second. So I really did put my music on the back burner for a while, even though I still wrote and I recorded. I’m lucky I have my studio at home, so I did that. But I really wanted to be a hands-on mum. And I was lucky I could do that. And so, you know, it was only so I just wanted to be involved in everything he was doing. And fortunately, you know, he’s moved, he’s followed me in a different way. But he writes film music. He’s in college doing that. 

KAREN GROSS: I love it! 

DONNA LEWIS: Yeah, and, but really music was on the back burner, which is hard for a woman, because then when you start getting back into it, you really feel, oh my god, everybody’s forgotten about you. Do you know what I mean? It happens and so, and some women don’t have that luxury of being able to still maybe even write and record at home. So that was like a weird one, like just coming back into it. And then I and then when, as he got older, I think it was about nine or 10, and then I go and do a couple of little European gigs. And, you know, start slowly, but I really didn’t want to go away and tour and and be away for like, months on end or whatever. So that was kind of a price I think you have to pay sometimes that people do forget who you are. So but, but now, you know, I don’t, I don’t regret any of that, because it was amazing. And now he’s 21, he’s a man!

KAREN GROSS: He’s 21!? You still look 21!! We’re gonna talk about what you’re doing in a second. I want to know your secret!

DONNA LEWIS: So he’s, you know, he’s a guy now, and, you know, I so I don’t regret any of that and that. And then it’s, it’s nice getting back into my music a little bit more now. But after the breast cancer thing, of course, that changes you as well. You know, it really then I start thinking, yeah, if I don’t want to do that, particularly if somebody comes up to me and says, “Would you like to do this project?” And I’m really not into it, I just don’t do it. I’m much more selfish now about the things that I kind of want to do.

KAREN GROSS: Tell us a little more about Donna, your creative practice. You’re sitting in your awesome studio. I can tell. What is your practice like? Are you a morning writer late? Do you have a certain mug you like to use, a certain pen? Like, can you just give us a window and like, what keeps you going and motivated? Any little tips you’d want to share? 

DONNA LEWIS: Definitely not morning. 

KAREN GROSS: Same!

DONNA LEWIS: I don’t know how anybody can do that. It’s funny. I do like to be, I mean, in like, the perfect world, I do like to be on my own. I love working with other musicians and being in the studio and writing together. But there’s something about being on my own in the studio, when I’ve created something and I’m working on it. I’m very much old school. I like a paper and pen. Do you know what I mean? I’ve got so many books that I’m just scribbling in all the time, which is kind of ridiculous, I might have to, you know, be a bit more modern soon. 

KAREN GROSS: Or not, it’s working. 

DONNA LEWIS: Yeah. So I like to be on my own and, like, have time, and I feel I’m lucky. I live in the country. I, you know, I have the windows open; sometimes the birds are on the recordings. But I or, you know, maybe it’ll be one o’clock in the morning and I’ll be in my pajamas, and then I’ll just come down and I’ll just do some recording. I like having that freedom to just to create when I want to. I’m not really like, oh, let’s get the candles going. And yeah, I didn’t, yeah, I’m not really much, because I just like the whole process of just getting in there and singing, I don’t have to have … but I like doing things quickly. That’s why I talk about the magic of demos. Because when you do have an idea and you start recording straight away, which I like to do, that’s when the magic happens. And I keep telling my son this, you know, always record your first takes, because sometimes those are the magic ones. You know, I see him sometimes, like figuring it all out before he presses record. I said, press the record button! But he’s got his own way of doing things. 

KAREN GROSS: I love that. That’s that’s so great to like hear more about your process, and it’s carried you through your career. Capturing that first take, that first demo we, we now know has been huge. And I just have to comment” your T shirt, which I’m seeing, you know, in your studio, it says upstate, and in some crazy stroke of fate or destiny, we actually collided in upstate New York when I was on a hike with my partner, Tim, who’s a wonderful composer, producer musician. Tim Motzer. Actually, I’m sitting in front of his painting, in case you all were wondering, I got a shout out Tim. Great painting here, which has become my background.

DONNA LEWIS: And friends of David Torn.

KAREN GROSS: Yes, so, so David Torn, and his wonderful wife, Linda, invited Tim and I up for lunch. Tim and David are collaborators. And you just rolled up and gave David a big hug, as I recall. And I was like, I have to be honest, I was a little starstruck. I was a fangirl. That’s Donna Lewis. I kind of lost it. And then I learned that you and David Torn collaborated. He’s produced for you. So can you just tell us, we got to give David a shout out, because I feel like … and but then, apropos of none of that, your publicist reached out to She Rocked It. I don’t think she knew that ever happened. Right? So can you believe by some wonderful act of the goddesses we are now reconnected, but we did have that quick run in. So tell us a little bit about your work with David Torn because we got to give him a shout out.

DONNA LEWIS: Yes, he is a brilliant guitarist and writer. He’s one-of-a-kind. We call him like the gentle wizard. He’s so like chill. He is a wizard. He’s a master. 

KAREN GROSS: He is, you nailed it. 

DONNA LEWIS: He is and but you know, when I was working with him in a studio, it was so interesting seeing him as the producer, the way he communicated with everybody. Because sometimes I feel like, I just like, say things off the top of my head, and I’m always like, Oh, God, I haven’t explained that properly. This is the reverb I like, and this is why I like it. And it’s not really clear. But I watched David, like, communicate with these incredible musicians and me, because this was out of my comfort zone. We were doing live takes of all these songs, and so I was not used to that, and it was a brilliant experience. But he just has this gift of just communicating so well with people and just getting the best out of everybody. But, yeah, he’s great.

KAREN GROSS: I love that. And just as a throughline of kind of what you’ve been mentioning, I think it’s so important as women to find the right collaborators. Yes, we can do things on our own. Like you said, that solitude of creation is so crucial. But then finding the right partners to help us to birth our creations is crucial. 

Well, Donna, this has been an amazing experience to get to hear some stories that I’m sure none of us have heard before, to learn more about your career and your creative practice and your collaborations. Thank you so much for sharing your voice with She Rocked It and with the world. I’m so grateful for this time. And you know, I always end with one question. If you can leave us with one tip to rock it as you rock it, what’s the one tip to rock it you’d want to leave with us?

DONNA LEWIS: One tip. There are probably so many, but I think don’t second guess yourself. I think that’s my thing. Just do the work and do the work that you want to do. Because I think we’ve all been there where we get too scared, you know, you know, we, we, oh, maybe I should have done that. I should be doing this. Should be working with so and so. I’m not really sure, but I really feel, don’t second guess yourself. Just do, you know whatever you feel from the gut, just do it. And I think that served me well, you know, throughout my career.